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Wednesday, November 11, 2009

Stacy Juba - Writing For Small Independent Publishers: The Yin and Yang

Writing For Small Independent Publishers: The Yin and Yang

Many writers have asked what it’s like working with a small independent publisher, and I’m pleased to report that it’s been a wonderful experience. My first mystery novel Twenty-Five Years Ago Today, about a newspaper obit writer who stumbles across an unsolved murder on the microfilm, was released in October from Mainly Murder Press. Like most independent publishers, MMP has a niche – in this case, New England-based mystery novels, serving authors and readers who especially enjoy mysteries set in the Northeast (New England plus New York and Pennsylvania).

Industry reports indicate that as larger publishing conglomerates narrow the choice of books that they publish, small specialized presses have stepped in to fill that gap with literary offerings often equal in quality, if not superior to, mainstream publications. These niche publishers know who is reading their product and how to reach them, which is good news for talented authors seeking a home for their work.

Although independent publishers maintain high standards of excellence and the submission process is competitive, writers don’t necessarily need an agent to submit. Should their work be accepted, small press authors will likely receive more individualized attention than authors published by a large conglomerate – for example, they might have an opportunity to give cover input and they may be kept more informed about the marketing of their books. As with any publishing contract, however, writers need to do their research before signing.

I first heard about my publisher when Mainly Murder Press announced over the Sisters in Crime listserv that they were accepting submissions. Sisters in Crime is an organization that promotes the professional development and advancement of women crime writers to achieve equality in the industry. I liked that MMP belonged to both Sisters in Crime and the Independent Book Publishers Association, as this reflects a high level of professionalism. I studied sample book contracts on-line, asked questions of published Sisters in Crime members, and read one of the publisher’s previous books. Satisfied that it was a terrific opportunity, I signed my name and celebrated.

Here are a few things to keep in mind when conducting research: What is the publisher’s distribution network? Does it include distributors such as Ingram’s, Amazon.com, Baker and Taylor, and Barnes & Noble.com so that bookstores and libraries can easily order your book? Does the publisher offer strong discounts and other attractive terms to distributors, retailers and libraries to encourage stocking and special ordering? How often are royalty payments issued and are they based on industry commission standards? Are there any fees to contracted authors? Are authors required to purchase a minimum quantity of their own title? Several small publishers (vanity presses cloaked as legitimate publishers) demand that the author purchase a minimum quantity of books, which can be as many as 500 copies or more. Because it's not a "fee," some writers fool themselves into thinking this is an industry requirement, but it most assuredly is not.

Writer Beware, the public face of the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America’s Committee on Writing Scams, offers a great deal of information through its web site, http://www.sfwa.org/for-authors/writer-beware/. This is a good place to begin your research. Once the contract has been signed, small press authors should prepare to take an active role in book promotion and marketing. In fact, many independent publishers require a marketing plan as part of the submission process. As a start, I established a web site, http://www.stacyjuba.com; created a Facebook page; visited mystery author web sites and jotted down the publications and book web sites that had reviewed their novels; compiled a database of local media, reviewers, and book clubs; created and distributed bookmarks; and researched email addresses for bookstores and libraries.

Working with an independent press lets you experience the Yin and Yang of the publishing industry – the creative side of writing balanced by the business side of marketing. I’ve had a lot to learn, but hopefully by the time Mainly Murder Press publishes my second mystery suspense novel, Sink or Swim, in Fall 2010, I’ll be an old pro. More information on Mainly Murder Press titles can be found at http://www.mainlymurderpress.com.


Shirley said...

Hi Stacy. We're so glad you could join us today. I'm very interested in independent publishing. Can you tell us why you chose to go with a smaller publisher instead of big houses? Did you try the big houses first?

Janet Kay Gallagher said...

Hi Stacy
Was this book idea from a real case?

Not in the area for your independent. Have you run across others and how do we find them?

Shirley said...

Sorry Guys. I posted this yesterday and saved it, then FORGOT to change the date!! If I do it now, we may lose the comments. SO keep in mind this is Thursday, not Wednesday!!!

Beth said...

Stacy, thanks for guest blogging.

It sounds like you've had a great experience with your independent publisher. Did you try to go the traditional route first with an agent and bigger house or were you more comfortable with this independent house since it filled a particular niche in your area?

Beth said...

Hi, again.

A few of us have finished debut novels and are in the editing or querying stage. Since we're in the Midwest, do you have a recommendation on how to find independent publishers (who aren't vanity presses) in this area?

Also, did your independent publisher set up book signings in your area or was that up to you? It sounds like you worked closely with them on the marketing. Plus, it would be great to have input on the cover and it sounds like you did.

Your book sounds good! Congrats.

Shirley said...

FYI Stacy WILL be here. She had an early appointment, but promised to be here to answer questions asap.

Keep those comments coming!!

Beth said...

I wondered where she was. Thanks, Shirley.

Stacy, I love the company name: Mainly Murder Press and was wondering how many employees they have. Did you work with an editor, artist (for the cover) and marketing person (or were you the marketing person)?

Also, what was the word count of your mystery novel?

How were edits handled? On hard copy or on the computer? Were many edits suggested, and if so, how did you find the process of editing and rewriting?

Finally, how long did it take from start to finish to get your book published -- from the date you first contacted the publisher to the date the book is out.


Stacy Juba said...

Hi everyone, sorry I'm joining you late. My doctor's appt. ran late! Thanks so much for hosting me. I'm excited to be here.

To answer your first question:
1. I did try bigger houses first, and the book was agented for a few years. Editors were interested in my work, but were looking more for a series. I didn't know when I started that it's hard to sell a mystery standalone. The good thing was that editors gave us feedback, and suggested making the book edgier. I went back to the drawing board with my protagonist, Kris Langley, and made her a darker, more haunted character. Now she has insomnia, a past addiction to sleeping pills, and works the night shift to escape the dark lonely night. I'm sure that making those changed ultimately helped me to sell the novel. I also think that perhaps things happen when they're meant to, and maybe the book just wasn't meant to be published then. I'm really happy with the way it unfolded as I enjoy working with an independent publisher.

Shirley said...

Welcome, Stacy. Do you have to do all of your promoting, or do you get any help at all from your publisher?

Stacy Juba said...

Hi Janet,
The book idea wasn't from a real case. It was just something that came to me - what if an editorial assistant stumbled across an old murder on the microfilm?

Some of the '25 Years Ago Today' blurbs sprinkled at the beginning of each chapter are real, however, with just the names and towns changed. I once worked as a newspaper editorial assistant, like Kris, and one of my jobs was compiling the 25 Years Ago Today column. So those tidbits came from my old columns.

As far as finding other independent publishers, I get most of that news from being a member of Mystery Writers of America and Sisters in Crime. That's how I heard about Mainly Murder Press. Sometimes, there will be an article/call for submissions in one of the newsletters or that comes across one of the listservs.

Midnight Ink is a good one, as well as Poisoned Pen Press and Avalon.
I've also been hearing about Oceanview Publishing. I found this web site with a list of mystery publishers, including some
independent presses. http://publishers.omnimystery.com/

Stacy Juba said...

Hi Beth,
I've found that it's exciting to be with a new publisher, and to watch them grow and add more authors. It's rewarding to be part of that from the beginning. I've worked with a large publisher before, (Avon) and that was a positive experience also, but there is a great deal of turnover in the publishing industry. Editors leave their jobs, move to other houses, start a new career as agents, or just leave the business entirely.
If an author has really gotten used to working with a certain editor, it can difficult if that editor suddenly leaves the publishing company. Or if several familiar people in the department are laid off.
One thing that's happened to me a couple of times is: an editor loves my work and asks me to do rewrites and resubmit. I do a ton of work over a few months and then resubmit, only to learn that the original editor is gone, and the new editor has changed the direction of the line and isn't interested in the manuscript. That was very frustrating to me. With an independent publisher, there is a lot less of that, and in some cases, the author may be working closely with the actual publisher.

Janet Kay Gallagher said...

Are you paying for some of the publishing costs, or does the Independent pick them up.
What kind of money do we have to put out to get published?

Stacy Juba said...

I'm not familiar with any regional publishers in the Midwest, but you could try the Writer's Market. I also found a web site for the Midwest Independent Publishers Association, and they have a list of members at this link: http://www.mipa.org/directory.html You could find the web sites for some of those regional publishers, and see if any might look like a good place to target for submission. And if you write mystery fiction, joining Mystery Writers of America and Sisters in Crime (both the national and regional chapters, if there is a regional chapter) would definitely help you to stay in the loop.

As far as promotion, the publisher has sent out flyers and catalogs to bookstores and libraries and they've offered special discounts to resellers for the holiday season. They are also doing many other tasks to promote the whole line of books, but it's important for the authors to do their share. I set up my own book-signings by contacting local booksellers and libraries, and wrote and distributed my own press releases to publicize the events. I also have a Facebook page, an e-mail newsletter, and will be sending e-mails to bookstores and libraries - starting with mystery bookstores. I had bookmarks made up and I'll offer those to any mystery bookstores or New England bookstores that might be interested in leaving them out on the counter. I've also been sending bookmarks to various book festivals and mystery conferences around the country.

Janet Kay Gallagher said...

Are you sending them to Libraries too? (Book Marks)
Borders on Glenstone in Springfield,MO.
Manager is Gary... It is on their site. Likes to have Book Signings. And we would get to meet you!
Sarah Palin is scheduled 2 Dec o9
at 10 AM

EmilyBryan said...

Fascinating. It almost sounds like the indie press is the boutique store of publishing--recognizing a niche market and capitalizing on it. Best of luck!

Stacy Juba said...

My word count was about 65,000. Many large publishers want manuscripts in the 75,000-85,000 range, but smaller presses often want something in the 50,000-70,000 range because of production costs.

In my case, the publisher has beta readers who screen submissions and send the best on to the publisher. The publisher works with editors and a cover designer, but she was my contact throughout the process. Both the submission and the editing process were done electronically. It was just minor copyediting. My book had been through a lot of rewrites and drafts before it was ever submitted there, so polishing was all it needed.

I submitted the book in March, signed the contract in early May, and it came out in late October. My next one, Sink or Swim, will be out in Fall 2010 - about a year away. I'm pleased with that, as it will give me plenty of time to keep promoting 25 Years and building a readership, and once I work my way down my marketing plan "checklist," then it will be time to start promoting the new book.

Shirley said...

Stacy, do you find that internet promotion is becoming the norm for authors? Or do you also do well at book signings?

Beth said...

I'd say that is a VERY FAST turn-around for your book (from March to Oct). Very impressive. I bet it would never happen that quickly at a larger publishing house.

Thanks for the site http://www.mipa.org/directory.html
I'll check that out.

My uncle, Wayne Holmes, is from the Midwest and recently had his memoir, ROCKY COMFORT, about growing up in the Ozarks in the horse and buggy days published by an independent publisher, Leonard Press. They did a fabulous job with the book and the cover. He has also had book signings all over and has been pleased with his publisher. We plan to have him speak during one of our meetings. Let us know if you're available, too!

Beth said...

Stacy, do you write in any other genre(s)? If so, which ones?

Also, and we've discussed this on our blog, how would you describe the difference between mysteries, suspense and thriller novels?

Stacy Juba said...

To answer Janet's questions, authors shouldn't have to pay for any of the publishing costs. I'm not paying anything to my publisher, and they will send me royalty statements.

Where I am spending money is with promotion. That is where you have to invest in yourself. I know lots of published writers through Sisters in Crime, and some of them have large publishers doing their series, and they're spending the same amount of money that I am. I don't think it has to do with the size of your publisher. These authors with larger houses want to keep their series in print as long as they can, as series do get dropped by publishers. So we're spending money on all the same things. The web site is a big one. If you want a professionally designed site, it can cost at least a thousand. But there are also free templates, if you'd rather do something simpler. I hired a designer to create the site, but my husband is a graphic designer and is able to maintain the site for the routine updates like adding reviews and editing the news and events. If he didn't have the knowledge or the software to maintain it, then I would have gone with a simpler web site rather than pay someone to do maintenance. So, if you want to hire a professional web designer, shop around and determine whether you want to pay someone to do routine maintenance, or do you want to maintain it yourself. That will determine who you hire and what software they use to create it for you.

My publisher did give me some free copies of the book, but I wanted to send out more to reviewers. Therefore, my other expense was the cost of buying extra copies and paying the postage to send them to reviewers, but I think that's a good investment as positive reviews helps to build readership. My husband was able to design bookmarks for me, so that expense was just the cost of paper. A thrifty author could figure out how to design the bookmarks using Word. I pay for membership in professional organizations like MWA and Sisters in Crime, but I did that for years before I had a book contract.

The other investment is just my time - the time spent doing guest blogs, e-mailing bookstores and libraries, sending out an e-mail newsletter a few times per year, doing a bookstore event or meeting with a book club, and that sort of thing. Some authors travel to a lot of mystery writer conferences, but for the most part, I stick to the local ones. I save all my receipts for tax purposes, since my writing is a business, so that helps. I even save receipts for paper and I track my mileage for bookstore visits. Which reminds me, I have to write down the mileage for an event I did last weekend!

Shirley said...

Stacy, I've been a member of MWA for years. Sleuths' Ink used to be a chapter of Sisters in Crime, but many members didn't want to pay the expense. I haven't been a member of SinC for years.

Can you tell us the benefits of Sisters In Crime for some of us who may be interested in joining/rejoining that one?

Janet Kay Gallagher said...

SINK OR SWIM--any hints on the story?

Stacy Juba said...

Hi Emily! Yes, I think independent publishers definitely specialize in a niche market and that's what makes them successful. Thanks, Janet, for the contact! I do plan to e-mail some libraries, starting regionally.

I have small children, so I don't plan to travel for signings or talks, but if you have a speaker phone, I'd be happy to chat with your group sometime. My dad grew up in Missouri.

Your uncle's book sounds terrific, Beth!

Shirley, I think that Internet promotion is becoming the norm. A lot of authors are doing their own blogs. I prefer doing guest blogs, as I just don't have the time to write my own blog, even once a week. I honestly don't know how many readers have time to keep up with all of these author blogs, either. It's a time drain, and new books have to get written. Some writers have day jobs, and the day job has to get done. The house has to get cleaned. So, I think an Internet presence is definitely a good thing, but in moderation unless you really enjoy blogging. I have a Facebook page, and I'll probably get on Twitter soon. I've been doing quite a bit of guest blogs, and would like to do a full-scale blog tour next fall. I'd like to do more with Good Reads and sites like that. But it can be overwhelming, so I think authors have to find a good balance of where to expend their promotional time. I've just done a few bookstore/library appearances so far, and I think those are very worthwhile. It also gives you an opportunity to distribute press releases to the local newspapers and build word of mouth that way. At this time, I don't plan to travel very far for bookstore events as they are difficult to fit into my schedule, and accumulating a lot of travel expenses doesn't make sense financially. But, I definitely plan to keep doing them in my state, and in other places that my travels might bring me to.

Beth said...

I looked at the site for independent publishers in the Midwest http://www.mipa.org/directory.html

Unfortunately, I didn't see any from MO but tons from MN. They must read a lot of books since it's so cold up there! There was one from HI--I didn't know Hawaii was in the Midwest. ha

Great to have this info. Thanks.

Stacy Juba said...

Mystery is pretty much the only genre I write in at this time. Though I am marketing one young adult paranormal thriller. It could be classified as a mystery, but the emphasis is more on the suspense. I think mysteries are more about the puzzle. The who and the why, and the investigation. Suspense and thrillers seem to be more about the effect, and often they have more than one point of view to maximize the suspense. We might get into the killer's head, and know he's getting closer. Then we might get into the police detective's head and see the crime scenes firsthand. It's all about the climax and the protagonist getting into danger, and building that intensity. The protagonist in a suspense novel or thriller is often the person who has been targeted, while in a mystery, the protagonist is often the one snooping around into someone else's business. At least, that's my perception of it. It's a good discussion topic!

Beth said...

Stacy, have you been interviewed on television or the radio? I know many authors get very nervous when a camera is shoved in their face. Do you get flustered?

Also, I totally agree with you about finding a balance with the social networking. I'm on FB, Twitter and have a blog that I update weekly. It's very hard to work, write, promote yourself, socialize and not have your house fall down around you. On that note, gotta do some laundry now. :)

P.S. Thanks about my uncle's book. It is a great read. I'm nearly finished. I love that he included a few pictures of our family.

Stacy Juba said...

Regarding Sisters in Crime, it has been a great resource for me. I also belong to the Guppies Internet chapter of SinC, which is a listserv of both unpublished and publisher authors. There are now many published authors who are members. They have critique opportunities, an agent subgroup, mystery analysis group, online writing classes at a discount, and the listserv has lots of talk about both writing and marketing. If you need to brainstorm your plot, find a critique partner, ask if anyone has heard of a certain publisher or editor, ask how to use Twitter or Facebook, etc., then there is always someone to ask, and it's interesting just reading the digest also. The Guppies have a very lengthy and informative newsletter also. Their web site is http://www.sinc-guppies.org/public.welcome.html
You have to be a SinC member, but it's a very small fee to join the Guppies. And SinC has many great benefits besides that. They have a listserv that features guests every week (agents, editors, authors, etc.) and they publish special reports in which they send representatives to talk to publishers, book distributors, agents and more about the state of the industry. If you're an author, SinC regional chapters will invite you to send bookmarks for the table or giveaway bags at their conference or at the book festival they're participating in. It's definitely a good investment, and it may have changed from your past experience with it. They've been growing a great deal over the past few years.

Stacy Juba said...

I'm looking at the clock and I have to head out now for a couple hours as the school day is ending soon, but I will finish answering the questions I didn't get to tonight if you want to check back later. If you have any more questions, please feel free to ask them and I will catch up with them tonight. I've been enjoying this and I'll look forward to answering the rest later. Thanks so much for inviting me and for all the great questions!

Shirley said...

Thanks for stopping by, Stacy. It's been an interesting topic. We appreciate you sharing your marketing tips with us.

Janet Kay Gallagher said...

How long did it take to write the book? Do you write every day?
Are you ploting books ahead?

Stacy Juba said...

Just got back on the computer for a few minutes! That's great you're able to do a regular blog, Beth. It seems as if most authors have one. It's nice as then you can feed it through to other sites on the Internet. I don't have the time to do one right now, but authors must feel it's helping or they wouldn't do it. I think it's some trial and error with the Internet promotion to see what works and what you enjoy. Some people hate Facebook and have given that up for other things. I kind of like Facebook, though I didn't think I would when I set up my page, so I've been doing a lot with that lately.

I just did my first cable access interview a couple weeks ago, and that went well. I haven't done any radio yet, but I'd like to approach some Internet radio shows that interview authors. I was nervous for the TV interview, but it was just three of us in the studio and the interview was more like a conversation so I felt more relaxed than I thought I would. I was really nervous for the first couple of book events, as most bookstores and libraries like authors to do a talk before the signing. I kept practicing on my husband and I felt like an idiot! When I first start talking in public, I feel a little nervous as I'm very introverted and it's definitely pushing the limits of my comfort zone, but then when people start nodding or smiling as if they're responding to my words, it gets easier as I go along. I like the question and answer part at the end as it's really interesting hearing what people are curious about. Sometimes my responses aren't quite as polished as I would like, but I think people relate to you more anyway if it's more of a casual dialogue.

Stacy Juba said...

Thanks for asking about Sink or Swim, Janet. It's about a personal trainer named Cassidy who goes on a reality TV show set aboard a Tall Ship called Sink or Swim (SOS for short) and comes in second. When she returns to her normal life, she has attracted a stalker. Meanwhile, two of her former competitors are killed off and she doesn't know whether it's related to her stalking. Soon Cassidy must walk the plank again, this time for her life.

Stacy Juba said...

It took about a year or year and a half to write the first draft of Twenty-Five Years Ago Today. It took several years and several drafts before it got published. I do something related to my writing every day. For the past six months, I've focused on marketing as I was starting from scratch, i.e. I needed to write all the web site content and work with the designer, research reviewers, set up and publicize the bookstore and library events, etc. I plan to get more focused with my marketing after the holidays, working on one or two marketing tasks per month, but right now it's been a juggling act working on several projects at once. After the holidays, I plan to finish polishing up my YA thriller and get that into circulation, and I also want to get back to writing my new book Sign of the Messenger, which is the first in a planned mystery series. I'd like to work on that every day, even if it's just in longhand. The way I usually work is I write a lot in longhand when I can't get on a computer, and then on days when I have several hours on the computer, I catch up and type it all in. That seems to work best for me since I'm raising a family.

I do have Sign of the Messenger all plotted out and fully outlined. The early chapters and synopsis won the William F. Deeck Malice Domestic Grant in 2005, so I've been working on it for awhile, but I've put it down several times to focus on rewrites of other projects. Now seems like the right time to finish it. I don't have other books in the series outlined, but I've planned it as a series from the start so I'll have a lot to work with in the future. It features a psychic hands-on healer who co-owns a quirky metaphysical shop.

Sandra Parshall said...

You're providing other writers with some valuable information here, Stacy. I know you did your homework before you signed anything, and that's the most important step any writer can take. Know what you're getting into!

Janet Kay Gallagher said...

I do not think I would want to get on a ship that said, "SOS" on it .
No reality showes either. We will be looking forward to seeing how she gets out of her delima.
How many books in the series are you planning?

Janet Kay Gallagher said...

How do book signings work?
Do you bring your own books to sale or does the store provide them.
How do you both make money at it?
Do you make money or is it just promotion hoping the people will tell friends and they will buy too?

barb schlichting said...

Very interesting and down to earth advice. Thanks!

Stacy Juba said...

Hi Sandy and Barb, Thanks so much for your comments!

Re SOS, I meant to write that the reality show is called Sink or Swim, aka SOS, and the ship is called the Atlantic Devil, but yeah - you don't want to go on this show! Or the ship. Not only do the contestants have to do a lot of grunt work while the ship sails around in endless circles for weeks, when they finally get home, they have to deal with a nutcase.

With book signings, if it's at a bookstore, the bookstore traditionally orders the books from their distributor. The store makes a profit depending how many books are sold, and perhaps customers will buy something else from the store while they're visiting. The author will get royalties from the publisher on all the books the bookstore ordered and didn't return. So, the author will make a little money from an event - but won't see it until their royalty statement. Also, it's a good opportunity to send out press releases as papers like to have a local angle, and an event is a local angle. The more people who attend and buy books, the more successful the event is for both the author and the seller. Sometimes, the author might have extra books in the car just in case the store runs out.

Libraries don't always have book sales. In that case, it's just to get to know readers, and people might bring a book previously purchased for you to sign.
Sometimes, a bookseller might be involved depending on the library's policies. Or smaller press authors might bring their own books to the library event and sell them. The author might order them from the publisher at the author discount, and then sell them at the cover price or close to it, and make a small profit on each book sold. They'll often give the library a percentage of the profit.

It's definitely a lot to learn, but networking with other authors helps a lot. I had a lot of these questions myself and got answers from published authors like Sandra Parshall through the Guppies.

Janet Kay Gallagher said...

If you wanted to write something that did happen and make it fiction, what precautions would you have to make?
I dreamed the other night that someone read what I had written and told me the real names of my people. Scary.

Janet Kay Gallagher said...

I did not tell you that all the people are dead now.

Beth said...

Stacy, thank you very much for your open, honest comments. You've helped all of us a great deal and provided a wealth of information.

Stacy Juba said...

Janet, I think many writers are inspired by real life events. I've heard authors speak at conferences and talk about how their latest book was inspired by a news story. I would change the region/setting, and make the characters different from the real life people - different ages, maybe different genders and different professions, depending what the story is about. I think you could make it sufficiently different. Good luck!

I'm glad some of the information helped, Beth. Thanks so much to the group for hosting me. This has been the most interactive blog that I've done and I appreciate all the fantastic questions.

Norma said...

Stacy, I just read the Guppy digest and you invited others published by small presses to comment. My book came out in October from Wings ePress, Inc. It is mainly an electronic press, but they offer an option of a POD paperback. (That is the only cost, $90 to set up the type for the POD book that is printed by someone else.)

They publish quite a few books. I was one of ten new books in October. This month they only have six new titles. And, although your time schedule from acceptance to publication was fast, mine was even faster! They offered a contract in August and published October first. (Can you say check out edited and copy-edited manuscript at the speed of light? Actually, they SAID I could take a week for each, but encouraged a quicker turn-around.

For checking them out, I knew of someone published by Wings, and I had one of their books which looked good. According to the contract, they pay royalties quarterly. Unfortunately, they don't ship through Ingram, but they will take returned books. (I think only for replacement with other books, however.) Oh, yes. I got to approve the cover art and they made the slight change in the art that I suggested.

Stacy Juba said...

Hi Norma,
Thanks for sharing your experience. Sounds like you've had a positive experience and thoroughly checked everything out. I think electronic publishing is really changing the publishing industry and providing new opportunities for writers. Congratulations and best of luck with it!